Some people lose faith and some people keep it... go figure.
We go into a restaurant. We look at a menu and we have faith that the individual taking our order will bring us our food. They have faith that we will pay for it. Sometimes there are hiccups. Sometimes the dressing isn't on the side. Or the meat is over cooked. But we don't lose our faith. We keep going to restaurants. We keep ordering food and we keep believing that they will bring us our food. We keep the faith.
As an example, let's take a union. I know a guy that quit his union because in a contract around ten years ago, a small detail item that he was interested in got dropped. So small that I really can't remember what it was. But that was all it took for him to have a snit, lose faith, quit and go home. It didn't matter that it was a contract that had a raise and a condition improvement. It didn't matter that the good of the many was served. All it took was for him to not have the world lay down the way he thought it should and he lost faith.
The reverse side of the coin. People find out that their minister consorts with prostitutes. (You might remember. It was national news) He comes back to the congregation and has himself a good cry and everyone forgives him and he continues. As a matter of fact he also continues to see prostitutes. People didn't lose faith in him.
Now to be honest here... I DON'T GET IT!!! It seems that recently I have seen so many people lose faith over nothing. Most of the time when I ask about it, they can't even give me solid answers. They say things like.....I'm so disillusioned! I know things that you don't know. I've seen things you haven't seen. I know somebody who has heard stories. The only thing anyone cares about is money....
Maybe I'm the one that's confused. So many people tripping over pebbles and pondering over the pebble as if it is life changing. A big, friggin' boulder they could go around but this little pebble is going to alter their existence. I don't know... my instinct tells me to jap-slap them up side the head and say, "Snap out of it, Whiney-Baby!!!" I don't know... I must be different.
But until I run into a boulder that I can't handle, I'm just gonna keep the faith, Baby... keep the faith.
louie
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I really like the way that you put it, Louie! It seems that the thing so many people lack, is the ability to trust others... I guess faith and trust go hand in hand.
ReplyDeleteKerrin Koetsier
Parelli Central
I think time plays a part in it as well. We can't see into other peoples hearts and minds and we make huge assumptions. If we were just willing to take the time ... to see what direction things were going. Sometimes, not always, but sometimes, you just have to see how a situation will play out. Instead, we stomp our wee feet and take our ball and go home. I don't mind that even. What I do mind is that most, to promote self justification, want to get a pack of others to go with them as well. Very, very few are willing to act as individuals.
ReplyDeleteThat's true, Louie. Echoing what you said, I think that people are far too critical. We don't give ourselves, or others, the time to prove who they are. We jump to conclusions far too soon. The funny thing is that opportunities in life ARE based upon our attitudes, when we are more willing to accept things and take the time it takes, I think we find more fulfillment.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you in that people tend to jump to conclusions and then take a crowd with them, but I don't have an issue with someone having a couple of followers when they've made an informed decision. I also think that true leaders produce self-confident individuals, that are happy to lead.
Kerrin~
Parelli Central
Oh golly! that could get us into a HUGE discussion on the quality of leadership, etc. I think I must be more loner then leader. I don't understand whipping people up in a frenzy. If people are actually trying to make informed decisions then you have a basis for understanding and conversation, but mostly I see frenzy whipping.
ReplyDeleteThe frenzy whipping is usually marked by catch phrase excuses.. as soon as those are hauled out then I just excuse myself and leave. the discussion is over.
This is an interesting discussion :)
ReplyDeleteI couldn't quite tell by your last sentence ('discussion is over.') whether you were ending this particular discussion, or if you were giving an example.. please let me know, as I'd be happy to stop discussing this subject if you'd prefer!
With regards to 'frenzy whipping,' I guess it depends on the particular leader. To me, if someone has invested the time in discovering something, then it makes sense that they share it. I also think that someone who has spent years discovering things the difficult way, will try to find a 'bitesized' way in which to pass that information on. I've had many mentors who have shared a lifetime's worth of knowledge with me in the space of a couple of years. If it wasn't for their investment in my life, I would certainly not be the person that I am.
So what do you think defines a leader? Do you think that it is wrong for a leader to have many followers?
Kerrin~
How I wish we could have this conversation on the telephone!!! i just wrote a huge comment back and lost it! Grrr! so i will try once again but this time I'll go with the Reader's Digest version. On the discussion is over thing. I love having conversations. dissenting opinions are possible as long as there is discussion with it... intelligent discussion!! but when people haven't rooted their thoughts and actions it soon becomes apparent and they fall back on slogans and rhetoric and shouting and for me that is when it is over. when you turn yourself into an idiot then I dismiss myself. After all, at that point, why stay?
ReplyDeleteOn leadership... there is only one genuine reason for a leader and that is to care for the people in his charge to the best of his ability and for the greater good of the whole. Not for themselves but for the whole! Doesn't matter if it is 4-H or the national scene. It is the only viable reason for leadership. Money, power, fame are usually the real reasons but not viable reasons.
Usually frenzy whipping is a contentious faction with in a group. In order to prove themselves they author of the unrest likes to split off and take others with them. You typically don't see frenzy whipping with in the leadership unless they are trying to get their followers to do something that is unnatural for the followers to do.
I'm going to throw Pat out here as an example. I've only gotten to speak with him at several tour stops but I have a good deal of material of him speaking. I could be wrong but here are my perceptions. for me, Pat is not a leader. He is my teacher/mentor. I am not a follower. I am a member of his student body. I did look at other horse men but I found them to be demonstrators and not teachers. I don't NEED a leader, i have charted my path, I know where I'm going. I NEED a teacher to give me the tools I require on my journey. Does that make sense to you? I suppose for some it would be hair splitting but they are very important hairs for me.
Hope I explained it better this time! See! Wouldn't this be easier on the phone! HA!
louie
Ahh man! Blogger can get quite annoying... I've started writing and saving my text in a program on my computer, and then copy it to blogger. That way, if things get lost, I can always recover my writing!
ReplyDeleteI fully understand what you said about discussions. When a person gets onto their soapbox, its not really a discussion, is it?
Well, I'm going to bat the ball back by asking another question… do you think that a leader is completely responsible for the outcome of it's followers? For instance, I've watched quite a few parents go through the heartbreak of having put their all into raising their child, but then when the teen years hit, that child goes completely off the rails. In this scenario, who is to blame? The difficult thing about leadership, to me, is that you've got to allow the follower to make their own decisions; even if they choose to reject you.
Obviously, a follower has to choose who they're going to follow. They choose what degree they're going to follow, and how they're going to let that leadership effect their lives. That's the follower's responsibility. Its the leader's responsibility to meet the follower at their level, and support them in the direction that they are going. The support that a savvy club member would receive, would obviously be quite a different experience to someone that also attends events and courses, and owns educational material. Its like the difference between someone that takes flying lessons, or reads a book about flying. Can you really blame the person who wrote the book if, upon finishing the book, that person still can't fly?
As you say, its also important that the leader genuinely has other people's interest at heart, there is a BIG difference between leaders and celebrities!
I can also understand what you said about the difference between leadership and teaching, but I beg to differ on what you said about Pat. To me, Pat is most certainly a leader, BUT not everyone is going to be his 100% committed follower. As I said earlier, we have to choose what degree we're going to follow a person or program. Some people, such as Pat's protégées, dedicate their lives to follow Pat Parelli. They choose him as their leader, and allow him to shape and form their lives, their thoughts, and their actions. But then, there are people (like you?) that really like the program, yet they use it as a teaching tool, rather than as their be all and end all. Thats healthy too. You may have a couple of different teachers, all of whom form who you are and what you do.
Does that make sense?
~Kerrin
Maybe we are just hitting a snag with semantics here. but my opinions will be different from yours but I think we will yield the same results. I can get behind a leader and I expect him to be responsible for areas of my life. For instance, the president whether I voted for him or not is the leader of the country. he is in charge of the rules and structures by which I live and survive. any leader that i have will be under scrutiny because he does affect the way i live. It's pretty much a cerebral thing for me.
ReplyDeleteThen a teacher! Now we're getting somewhere! A good teacher usually has a calling. they are driven to do and be who they are. and I have heard Pat describe this himself. Now I have something that I can also commit my heart to, my life to.
Historically, people will find a teacher and bind their lives to them. sometimes you have to make pilgrimages but it is usually marked by growth, development and lasting knowledge. It is profound, but it's the knowledge that is profound. Pat is the vessel. someday he will be gone and the knowledge will have to be instilled into someone else. the knowledge itself will still be profound. Being a teacher is so much deeper and broader and personal then being a leader. THAT is why it is changing my life, and me, clear out here far away from Pat. I don't have the benefit of personal interaction, that you have. Perhaps that is why I feel the teaching is stronger then any leadership qualities. I also come from the generation that remembers people like Jim Jones and the Ghana experiment he created. It makes you realize that you can only trust someone that allows you to question. A leader doesn't do that typically , but a teacher encourages it.
Anyway, I think we are allocating the same properties to Pat, but different definitions. Like I said maybe an issue with semantics.
louie
I think we're saying the same thing, Louie! But as you say, its an issue with semantics.
ReplyDeleteI looked up the word 'leader' on an online dictionary, and this is what they came up with:http://ow.ly/2fI8i of course this lead to me looking up the word 'lead' which resulted in this: http://ow.ly/2fIcV
The definition of teacher, according the online dictionary, is: http://ow.ly/2fIfk
I've always thought that a leader can also be a teacher, but then again, I guess a teacher can be a leader. What do you think? Can a teacher/leader be both?
To me, a teacher is there to help with a certain skill (anything from knitting to learning about yourself). Of course that skill could be life changing, but still, its a skill. Whereas I think that a leader defines who you are on a deeper level; someone that the follower trusts 100%, and would give anything for.
~Kerrin
My years are going to show now. My life experiences tell me that No one should be trusted 100%. As harsh as that sounds, you have to realize that we are just human. All of us have an off day. The real test of a person isn't if he messes up. EVERYONE messes up. The real test is what does he do the day AFTER he messes up.
ReplyDeleteI think "trust" will become another issue of debate for us.
I can trust a snake to be a snake... I cannot trust a snake to be a babysitter. Trust is not a blanket issue. there is healthy trust and unhealthy trust and many, many shades of gray.
That is not a slam towards anyone... I believe if I were at Parelli land and I (actually anyone) was in danger that Pat would risk his own hide to save me (them). I think that is the kind of person he is. Would I give him 100% all encompassing trust.... no. To fulfill 100% trust an individual must be 100% perfect and what a heavy, heavy burden that is to place on another's shoulders. I would rather trust a person to the capacity that THEY can handle. And then when they have that day where they fall short, then YOU are capable to see the problem and step up and stand shoulder to shoulder and support them in that moment.
Considering we keep throwing Pat into this conversation, I wish he could read it and throw in a thought or two himself. I wonder if he considers Tom Dorrance as a teacher or a leader. Hmmm how interesting.
louie
Hi Louie! I work with Kerrin and came via Kerrin's link roundup, but she's been sending me links to your blog posts for awhile now, so I thought I should actually comment for once. :D
ReplyDeleteKerrin said: "We don't give ourselves, or others, the time to prove who they are."
I've recently embraced a philosophy in life that we should also give others the time to *become* who they are (or who they will be, at any rate). It's really easy to become frustrated with people and write them off because they aren't at the same place as you are in life, but you miss a lot of opportunities and friendships that way. My best friend and roommate when I was Kerrin's age (oh, so long ago :D) was much older than me, and looking back, she was probably endlessly frustrated by my immaturity and lack of knowledge about how the world worked, but she didn't just give up on me. She easily could have. Today I credit her with a lot of my better qualities; rather than writing me off, she helped me grow as a person. We can and should do that for the people in our lives, IMO. It's no less than we'll do for our horses... if they have bad or destructive habits, we're taught not just to work around those habits but to help our horses become better citizens.
Fascinating conversation! I found your BLOG through the Round Up too (thanks Kerrin!).
ReplyDeleteI think I'm probably in your generation, Louie. I used to send my sons off to school, saying to them "Remember to always question your authority." It's something that we all still discuss via email, phone and when we have the chance to be together.
Thanks for writing about 'faith' in terms other than religious too. It's an all encompassing term worth taking the time to explore.
Nancy Ness, Parelli student, shaking her head and smiling at the way things go
I hoped that this conversation might be continued through my link round up... for those of you that would like to read the link round up, click here: http://ow.ly/2rW36
ReplyDelete~Kerrin
Parelli Central